the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License.
the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License.
Revisiting Lorenz’s and Lilly’s Empirical Formulas for Predictability Estimates
Abstract. Recent studies have reiterated that the two-week predictability limit was originally estimated using a doubling time of five days from the Mintz-Arakawa model in the 1960s. However, this two-week predictability limit has conventionally been viewed as one of Lorenz's major findings from his 1969 studies. The limit has been presumably attributed to the mechanism involving the insignificant contributions of unresolved scales smaller than 38 meters. To understand the discrepancies in the origin of the two-week limit and to validate the mechanism in addressing the dependence of finite predictability on the atmospheric spectrum, we revisit Lorenz's studies, Lilly's work, and related research from the 1960s and early 1970s.
We first review how Lilly applied turnover time in turbulence theory to construct a convergent series that appears mathematically similar to the original Lorenz series. We then reexamine how Lorenz observed regularity in a sequence of saturation times over 21 selected wave modes and used the regularity to construct a convergent series, illustrating the negligible contribution of unresolved small-scale processes to predictability enhancement.
Our reanalysis does not support the claim that Lorenz’s and Lilly’s formulas are mathematically identical or physically comparable. Major discrepancies and inconsistencies include the use of different physical time scales in Lorenz's and Lilly's studies and the lack of a common factor of 2^{-2/3} that can be robustly determined from Lorenz's data. This falsifies the assumption that saturation time difference and turnover time are linearly proportional over the selected wave modes. Additionally, given the -5/3 power spectrum, we demonstrate that the convergence properties of Lorenz's or Lilly's series depend on spectral discretization. These issues, along with the highly simplified features of the Lorenz 1969 model, indicate that an upper bound for the predictability limit has not been robustly determined in Lorenz's and Lilly's studies. Therefore, caution should be exercised when applying Lilly's formula to conclude the dependence of finite predictability on the slopes of spectra. This perspective suggests opportunities to explore larger predictability and extend weather forecasts using various approaches, including sophisticated theoretical, real-world, and artificial intelligence-powered models.
Status: open (extended)
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RC1: 'Comment on egusphere-2024-2228', Anonymous Referee #1, 07 Nov 2024
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See attached file
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AC1: 'Reply on RC1 (R1A)', Bo-Wen Shen, 25 Nov 2024
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Responses Part 1A (R1A): A reevaluation of Figure 3 in Zhang et al. (2019) .
Please refer to our responses, R1A, in the attached file.
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EC1: 'Reply on AC1', Olivier Talagrand, 12 Dec 2024
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To answer first a request by the authors, I do not think any of the mathematical developments in their paper is flawed. I only think that many of those developments are too lengthy and in addition useless to ordinary readers of NPG, who can be expected to be familiar with the mathematical notions that are used there.
I had mentioned the article by Zhang et al. (2019), which also leads to the conclusion of an ultimate predictability limit of two or three weeks. I had also mentioned (without explicit reference to Zhang et al.) that the coincidence of the predictability limits of Lorenz and Lilly should be mentioned, and possibly discussed. The authors present a discussion of the validity of the approach taken by Zhang et al., as well as of their conclusion. The authors may of course wish to include that discussion in a revised version of their paper, but that is by no means what I considered necessary, or even desirable.
The authors finally present a discussion of the predictability of the modified Logistic Equation. That discussion seems to me to be totally irrelevant for their paper, and corresponds to nothing I had asked or suggested.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/egusphere-2024-2228-EC1 -
AC5: 'Reply on EC1', Bo-Wen Shen, 13 Dec 2024
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To facilitate prompt discussions, we would like to provide quick responses to the Editor’s comments below while we prepare a comprehensive response.
First, we appreciate the Editor’s comments that acknowledge the lack of identifiable flaws in the mathematical analysis and reiterate the findings reported by Zhang et al. (2019).
As also acknowledged in the Editor’s comments, we indeed presented concerns about the validity of Zhang et al.’s approach, which employed the modified Logistic equation. Zhang et al. (2019) had utilized the same Logistic equation to estimate predictability horizons. We analyzed the same equation to express our concerns, which were outlined in the first response file.
In summary, Zhang et al.’s approach diverged from Lorenz and Lilly’s in terms of evaluation metrics. Zhang et al. employed the modified Logistic equation with adjustable parameters for error growth, while Lilly utilized turnover time in their formula. Consequently, the differing metrics and the absence of physical interpretations for the tunable parameters in the modified Logistic equation render Zhang et al.’s findings insufficient to establish the physical or mathematical validity of Lorenz’s or Lilly’s formulas.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/egusphere-2024-2228-AC5 -
AC1: 'Reply on RC1 (R1A)', Bo-Wen Shen, 25 Nov 2024
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Responses Part 1A (R1A): A reevaluation of Figure 3 in Zhang et al. (2019) .
Please refer to our responses, R1A, in the attached file.
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AC5: 'Reply on EC1', Bo-Wen Shen, 13 Dec 2024
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EC1: 'Reply on AC1', Olivier Talagrand, 12 Dec 2024
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AC2: 'Reply on RC1 (R1B)', Bo-Wen Shen, 26 Nov 2024
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Please refer to our responses R1B in the attached PDF file.
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AC3: 'Reply on RC1 (R1C)', Bo-Wen Shen, 27 Nov 2024
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R1C: Qualitative Predictability Estimates Using Lilly’s Formula and Comparative Insights
For more information, please refer to the attached PDF file.
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AC1: 'Reply on RC1 (R1A)', Bo-Wen Shen, 25 Nov 2024
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RC2: 'Comment on egusphere-2024-2228', Anonymous Referee #2, 10 Dec 2024
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The authors present a review on the fundamental predictability limits of the atmosphere and put forward arguments to suggest that the classical estimates by Lorenz and Lilly could be inexact. In particular, they claim that the discretization in wave-number space influences these estimates, and that it should be taken into account. As exposed below, I think this reasoning is wrong and should be revised.
The main flaw in the reasoning of the authors is to assume that the discretisation can be chosen a priori. The inertial range of turbulence implies that the local turnover time depends on a power of the scale. From this follows that changes in the turnover time in scale, which are related to the growth of error and the propagation of uncertainty, cannot be linear with the scale. In other words, if we add a fixed increment to the scale, the increment of the turnover time will not be equal across scales when scaled in local turnover times. On the other hand, if we add an increment of scale that is proportional to the scale, the increment of the turnover time will be proportional to a constant in local turnover times. This is what gives Lorenz's and Lilly's models validity even though they are very crude representations of reality. In this sense, the physical assumptions and the theory come before determining the appropriate scaling for the scale increments, and not the other way round. I do not think the authors have a clear physical justification for a linear scaling of the scale increments. Moreover, many investigations have shown that the growth of perturbations follow a self-similar scaling, none of which are cited in the paper, for instance, a recent one, Boffetta, G., & Musacchio, S, PRL, 2017.
By the way, the same argument as that of Lorenz's and Lilly's for the scale increments is used in the classical theory of the turbulence cascade to justify that energy can travel to the small scales in a finite time, even at infinitely large Reynolds, when the ratio of large over small length-scales is formally infinite. Probably, a linear approach to this problem would yield an infinite cascade time, in clear contradiction with the empirical observation that dissipation occurs even at vanishing viscosity.
Citation: https://doi.org/10.5194/egusphere-2024-2228-RC2 -
AC4: 'Reply on RC2 (R2A)', Bo-Wen Shen, 11 Dec 2024
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In response to Reviewer 1’s comments, we’ve added a brief note explaining the connection between turnover time and the target energy spectrum described by the -5/3 power law (egusphere-2024-2228-AC2). Below, we delve into the concepts of scale invariance and self-similarity associated with power laws to address the raised concerns.
For more information, please refer to the attached PDF file.
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AC2: 'Reply on RC1 (R1B)', Bo-Wen Shen, 26 Nov 2024
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Please refer to our responses R1B in the attached PDF file.
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AC4: 'Reply on RC2 (R2A)', Bo-Wen Shen, 11 Dec 2024
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Data sets
Exploring the Origin of the Two-Week Predictability Limit: A Revisit of Lorenz’s Predictability Studies in the 1960s Bo-Wen Shen et al. https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/15/7/837
Revisiting Lorenz’s Error Growth Models: Insights and Applications Bo-Wen Shen https://www.mdpi.com/2673-8392/4/3/73
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